John Baik is the chapter director of (Shepherds Church Gardena) El Camino UBF which is now known as (Harvest South Bay Church Torrance) El Camino UBF. He has decide to respond to ubfriends by sending his student Clifford Tylin Rothrock to send a letter to me. As you’ll see in the letter UBF in 2017 is no different than UBF in 1985. In fact Clifford’s letter is quite similar to Mark’s letter in UBF dialogue, insider language, and more.
Here are screenshots of the letter:
Here is my commentary , corrections, etc:
I pray this this finds you with Jesus love;
By Jesus he is referring to Baik in third person. More details later.
You act like you do not like us, the ministry, Msn John or myself.
It is the ministry as whole and people’s actions that I didn’t like. Not the people themselves.
From the beginning, you would text me with despising words
Wrong. I wasn’t like that in the beginning. I start waking up and challenging the ministry the last year I was there 2016. If I truly texted you “despising words” then please post the screenshots online. If you are not lying about that and have undisputed evidence of that you should have no problem making such information public.
we texted each other and you obviously had contempt for me or the ministry.
Again, if you have evidence for this do demonstrate this publicly online. That is if you didn’t make it up.
You even called Msn John “old man Baik” at one point.
I don’t recall in memory of ever doing so. If you have physical evidence for this show it. If not then this is a demonstration of Rothrock gaslighting me in a subtle way.
You have reached out to others in the ministry verbalizing your contempt for the ministry.
In UBF when a longtime member stops participating in the activities and starts to question and/or challenge the ministry they understand it as contempt. It was not out of contempt but concern. In fact at the time I had a desire to reform UBF.
You have even written a blog, quite obviously showing your contempt for the ministry.
By blog he is not only referring to my personal blog but to ubfriends.net as well. This is interesting for when my bible teacher first found out about the blog by a current member of the church he acted all “caring” and went as far as to say quote “You must have been upset before”. But now he and the seniors are pissed off that I made a lot of online content about them. To this day I still don’t know who betrayed me.
However, on the other hand you want to be one with us and be with us. You come to have Bible study and come to worship service. So, obviously these things do not match. They are quite contrasting. This is not logical, because they do not line up, they do not match, one does not follow the other.
When things don’t go their way and you do something they don’t expect they come to have this understanding. What I want to note here is that he is using logic instead of the bible. In UBF it is not only frowned upon but also considered a sin to use logic so for that reason I find it interesting he admitted to using logic. What is incorrect about this statement was at the time Rothrock wrote this I already stop going to bible study.
That is why at one point I asked you why do you still come?
Apparently amnesia is quite prevalent in the church. For I stated several times that the reason I still went there in 2016 was in hopes to not only reform UBF but to reach out to any of the junior members who have also have concerns regarding issues in the church.
But, instead of looking to yourself and seeing your problem, you try to find blame with me, or the ministry.
In other words he is saying that the church [El Camino UBF] was never at fault and that it’s just me. Yet, they would have secret meeting and even threaten members. Inthe biblical it is ok at times to challenge Christian leaders. Hereare two biblical examples:
Nathan confronted King David
2 Samuel 12:1-13 New International Version (NIV)
Nathan Rebukes David
12 The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor.2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”
7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’
11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”
Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.
King David was actual Nathan’s superior. Yet as you can see in the passage God doesn’t just speak to only ‘Seniors’ and missionary but also to those who are ‘little children’ basically those who are lower ranked. Did Nathan ever get punished for challenging God’s anointed? No.
Peter and the disciples challenged the Teachers of the law of Moses
Acts 4 and Acts 5;17-42 New International Version (NIV)
Peter and John Before the Sanhedrin
4 The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadduceescame up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people.2 They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. 3 They seized Peter and John and, because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. 4 But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.
5 The next day the rulers, the elders and the teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6 Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas,John, Alexander and others of the high priest’s family. 7 They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’[a]
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. 14 But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. 15 So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrinand then conferred together. 16 “What are we going to do with these men?” they asked. “Everyone living in Jerusalem knows they have performed a notable sign, and we cannot deny it. 17 But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn them to speak no longer to anyone in this name.”
18 Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John replied, “Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges! 20 As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”
21 After further threats they let them go. They could not decide how to punish them, because all the people were praising God for what had happened. 22 For the man who was miraculously healed was over forty years old….
The Apostles Persecuted
17 Then the high priest and all his associates, who were members of the party of the Sadducees, were filled with jealousy. 18 They arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail. 19 But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the doors of the jail and brought them out. 20 “Go, stand in the temple courts,” he said, “and tell the people all about this new life.”
21 At daybreak they entered the temple courts, as they had been told, and began to teach the people.
When the high priest and his associates arrived, they called together the Sanhedrin—the full assembly of the elders of Israel—and sent to the jail for the apostles. 22 But on arriving at the jail, the officers did not find them there. So they went back and reported, 23 “We found the jail securely locked, with the guards standing at the doors; but when we opened them, we found no one inside.” 24 On hearing this report, the captain of the temple guard and the chief priests were at a loss, wondering what this might lead to.
25 Then someone came and said, “Look! The men you put in jail are standing in the temple courts teaching the people.” 26 At that, the captain went with his officers and brought the apostles. They did not use force, because they feared that the people would stone them.
27 The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28 “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”
29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things,and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
33 When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
40 His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. 42 Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.
Did the disciples get punished by God for challenging the teachers of the law? No
In both examples in the bible the disciples and Nathan were by definition rebellious and challenge someone that had a higher rank than them. It is ok to challenge Christian leaders as long as it is accordance to the bible and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
You have a demon problem.
UBF’s definition of demon possession is different from the bible’s defintion of demon possession. Here is the bible’s defintion of demon possession.
And one of the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought You my son, possessed with a spirit which makes him mute
Constantly, night and day, he was screaming among the tombs and in the mountains, and gashing himself with stones.
for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way.
Demons » The deaf man
As they were going out, a mute, demon-possessed man was brought to Him. After the demon was cast out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”
Demons » Disciples could not expel
and whenever it seizes him, it slams him to the ground and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth and stiffens out. I told Your disciples to cast it out, and they could not do it.” Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Demons
- cause illness
- make performances such as magic
- cause physical deformities
- cause alienation
- physical hurt others
- cause people they possess to scream
- are very violent
That’s the bible’s definition of demon possession. UBF’s definition of demon possession which Rothrock refers to is this:
Someone who leaves the “mission” and/or doesn’t get along with the program. By the latter I mean someone who doesn’t believe in their dogma and participate in their activities.
That alone is not only just based on logic but the only justification to be called demon possessed despite the fact that I have never done the following to any of the members:
- cause illness
- make performances such as magic
- cause physical deformities
- cause alienation
- physical hurt others
- act violently
You know that God is working among us and is with us.
Basically he is saying that God is with them even when they
- threaten people
- willing to sue people
- committing immoral acts like abandoning children in the car (Rothrock has done this)
- deliberately lie to people
- betray people
- conduct heavy surveillance on members
- leave their own members homeless
- have double standards
- send people to the student’s house to harass them
So, demons are trying to destroy you and the ministry using your contempt and negative attitude.
Here is an example of subtle spiritual abuse
Remember Genesis: Satan came to destroy Gods work, and uses our way of thinking and emotions and mistrust and attitude etc. But if anything builds up your relationship with God, then it is from God. Anything that destroys your relationship with God is from the evil one.
This is the only time he uses the bible. This is a reference to Genesis 3.
You are being used by these demons.
As I showed earlier Rothrock has no biblical proof that I’m demon possessed. If this biblically true true they why not conduct exorcism? The reason is because the ministry doesn’t believe in exorcism. From an insider’s perspective their understanding of curing demons is by just basically feeding students theology via bible study. This doesn’t make sense. If a doctor just tells the patient info on a disease that doesn’t cure the patient. The doctor has to do an examination of the patient and prescribe treatment or medication. So for demon possessed people they don’t need just theology but an exorcism.
if you come to Jesus He will free you.
The insider’s perspective is that if you submit/come to your human shepherd then your are coming to Jesus. But in reality when one solely focuses on this application alone the human shepherd takes the place of God thus resulting in idolatry. Here Rothrock is referring to himself as Jesus in third person.
you can truly be one with us in Jesus.
From insider’s POV it is by submitting to the “shepherd” and participating with the ministry in all of their activities. What this actual means is that he wants me to be a clone.
Then your desires will match
Here he is indirect referencing the shepherding movement whose desire is to fulfill the great commission by solely focuses on young people like college students. [More info on the shepherding movement.] Furthermore serving God is not limited to just listening to their ministry and UBF. Here is biblical proof:
1 Corinthians 12:4-11 New International Version (NIV)
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b]11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
but unless you deal with this demon problem with Jesus, they will continue to destroy you; your faith, your trust and everything else.
Has my faith, trust, everything else been destroyed? No. If you have physical or biblical evidence to prove this then do so publically unless you are terrified that you might be wrong.
Then as Paul says, you can truly overcome the evil one.
Paul never said this. I even googled search this. This goes to show that the ministry can’t be trusted with spiritual things.
I am writing to you because it is difficult to talk with you about such things in person.
You are telling me that after being a personal shepherd for 3+ years you all of a sudden have difficulty talking with me? I don’t buy it.
Just think about what I am saying
When this is made public I won’t be the only one.
I have meditated on this and have prayed to God about this for quite some time so I only say these things for your benefit and good; as your shepherd.
Apparently that wasn’t the only thing you did. You also threatened to arrest me. Rothrock says these things by the direction of John Baik, not out of heart.